Thumb rule for piping engineer

Thumb rule for piping engineer. The pressure drop that is measured across an orifice is proportional to the squared flow rate. They utilize various design software such as SP3D, PDMS, CADWORX, SOLIDWORKS, AutoCAD, PDS, Microstation, E3D, etc. This book should be used in conjunction with the excel spreadsheet titled HVAC Rule of Thumb Calculator. com/Uses a design heuristic related to energy losses in a piping system. For example, the design philosophy for an offshore facility is quite different from that for an onshore chemical plant simply because of limited space available on offshore platforms. Appliance/Equipment Rules of Thumb 13. 10:1 for equal percentage valve trims. The guideline FOB cost is in US $ for a value of the Chemical Engineering Index (1957–59 = 100), CEPCI Index = 1000. There are Code rules in ASME Sec VIII for design of flanges and Piping Design Engineers deal with the piping routing design of the entire plant. 5 to 4. On the other hand, lower velocities result in larger (and more expensive) pipes and may cause issues like fouling or solids deposition due to insufficient turbulence. Ventilation Rules of Thumb 9. 797814 Sq. Description. 61. . On the other hand, low-pressure steam traps with a pressure rating below 30 PSIG can be checked annually. Stephen Hall offers practical tips on calculating pressure loss due to friction. (It is not necessary to take actual pipe outside diameter from Mar 8, 2021 · Summary. The minimum diameter of bars used in slab should be 8mm. Maximum diameter of bars used in RCC slab is 1/8th times of slab thickness. Stainless steel, Monel, Inconel - 3 m/s. As a general rule, steam traps should be replaced after every three to four years. The book thoroughly explains the expansion of piping systems and temperature limitations of new materials such as polyethylene, polypropylene, PVC, CPVC, and PEX. Feed. Explanation: This rule provides a general estimate for the quantity of steel needed in the structural framing of a building. Support. An expansion loop consists of bends/elbows and pipe sections designed in a specific way to absorb the movement and prevent stress on the piping system. AIChE The Global Home of Chemical Engineers. The usual rule of thumb is that a valve should be designed to use 10-15% of the total pressure drop or 10 psi, whichever is greater. 1 support spacing Table 121. 5" (Main) 50. the layout should reflect a logical Sep 30, 2021 · Ensure that piping and conduit connections are flexible. The chapter presents some thumb rules regarding the visual aspects of P&IDs. Cooling Load Factors 14. People/Occupancy Rules of Thumb 11. 038m3 = 30. A 1% slope is equivalent to a 0. Branches from the Main are to be no longer than 6ft (2M) from each instrument and obviously for valve actuators air consumption will be more depending on if they are On/ Off piston or diaphrapm control valves Jan 6, 2017 · It is the objective of this article to provide a simple rule of thumb to plant engineers, vibration engineers, and managers that are facing a vibration issue at their power or process plant. Vibration issues on piping systems can occur during commissioning of a new plant, after power uprate, or after major equipment replacement. The main aim of the piping inspection is to ensure plant reliability reducing probable errors and thus safely operating the plant throughout its design life. 6 m/s. Calculate amount of paint required for length of 100 meters. the basic principles of piping design; explores pipeline shortcut methods in an in-depth manner; and presents expanded rules of thumb for the piping desig Basic Cost Engineering, Third Edition Kenneth K. The text is comprehensively revised and updated with new data and formulas. 1. Feb 18, 2022 · A 1% slope in piping informs that the pipe will vertically rise or fall by 1 unit for every 100 units of horizontal length. Major hassle for the owner. I highly recommend this material if you want to save lots of time. Small Business Handbook Occupational Safety and Health. But these are guidelines – not data! The cost estimates are ball park ideas. Luis Ángel Sánchez Madera. Chemical engineers faced with fluid flow problems will find this book extremely useful. All plants are designed for a pre-determined Rules of Thumb: Pressure Drop Due to Friction. This popular reference has now been fully updated to reflect the construction industry's new single body of codes and standards. Now from the below table which is for 1 m³ Rules of Thumb for Chemical Engineers - Carl Branan - 3rd. Insightful. Pipe sizing Software Easy to Use Excel template. Length of Pipe (L) = 100 meters = 100000 mm. ENSURE THE PIPING ARRANGEMENT DOES NOT CAUSE STRAIN ON THE PUMP CASING. Have you noticed, looking at the famous ASME B31. The actual steel May 28, 2012 · Here are some of the rules of thumb I have come across – while I have no problems if you correct me, I would like to hear from you WHY you are correcting me. Rules of Thumb for Chemical Engineers - Carl Branan - 3rd. The goal is to eliminate extra horizontal or vertical forces from the piping. 8 mm). Construction Thumb Rules. 57° angle. Where necessary, a 90° and a 45° elbow can Avoid high pockets in suction piping, which can trap air. For Small Vane & Screw air compressors (25 HP or less) 4 CFM per HP. Pipe Supports that are directly attached to the pipe are called Primary pipe Supports. For our system, 10% of the total pressure drop is 15 psi which is what we'll use as our allowable pressure drop when the valve is wide open (the pump is our system is easily capable of the additional pressure drop). 5 Test your piping knowledge by taking these short 10 questions quizzes on Piping Components such as pipes, fittings, flanges, and olets. This book provides you more background knowledge on inputs (Section 4. 141 X 254 = 0. Engineering Documentation Online | Manuals, technical data May 1, 2012 · They should be used where the joint must be 100% leak proof. A practical and convenient reference, it provides quick solutions to the everyday pipeline problems that the pipeline engineer, contractor, or designer faces. <br /> Fluid<br /> Mar 11, 2024 · Rules of Thumb for Chemical Engineers amazon com. May 15, 2015 · Two Rules-of-Thumb Regarding Piping Systems. Jun 1, 2021 · 4. Lead Piping Engineer at Cameron, a Schlumberger company Published Jun 3, 2016 + Follow Like. ). ) on pipe rack 4. Save time with this collection of straightforward, common-sense techniques that provide quick, accurate solutions to your engineering problems. Support every major in-line component within 5 pipe diameters. This website serves mechanical engineers throughout the various Organized by textbook: https://learncheme. Estimate power requirements at 3 HP/MMBTU/hr for fans for face velocity of air to the coil of 450 to 550 ft/min. Rules of Thumb for Chemical Engineers, Fifth Edition, provides solutions, common sense techniques, shortcuts, and calculations to help chemical and process engineers deal with practical on-the-job problems. Funny The document provides various thumb rules and equations for estimating key parameters in piping systems, heat exchangers, pumps, compressors, and other industrial equipment. Fe 500 Steel should be used in the RCC slab. Surface area of pipe for one meter (A) = Pi X D = 3. The most similar professions to Piping Engineer are: Mechanical Designer. This encyclopedic volume covers almost every phase of piping design - presenting procedures in a straightforward way. The range given, for instance, $50,000 – $100,000 per unit, provides an approximate cost per unit. 1) is the responsibility of the piping team. 5 SCFM (0. Thus Total concrete quantity required to build an 800sqft house is – 30. 2" (main) 100. Dec 23, 2020 · Stress engineers should have a good understanding of piping layouts, ASME code requirements, and the art of optimization. It also lists equivalent pipe lengths for common piping components to account for their impact on Boilers, Piping, Traps, etc. Dec 9, 1996 · Description. Control Valve Sizing is a procedure of deciding the appropriate type and size of the control valve to optimally satisfy the requirements of fluid flow management. = 800 x 0. Written by Anup Kumar Dey in Piping Design Basics. Support all risers directly if greater than 15 feet in height. Celebrate. Online Slide Courses on Piping Sponsor. Mar 5, 2003 · 1. Proper piping installation following codes and standards are key to safety and good operation. Humphreys 1995-09-05 This work focuses on the application of fundamental cost engineering principles to the capital and operating costs Selected Rule of Thumb in Chemical Engineering; Heat Exchangers, Pump, Compressor, Piping (Kuliah ke-10 Perancangan Produk dan Proses Kimia, S1 Teknik Kimia, Pipeways shall be sized for present needs plus 15%. Humidification Rules of Thumb 10. 75kg/-Sqft. Thumb Rule 3: Thumb Rule For Steel Quantity Required for Slab, beam, footing & columns. Their types, materials, and dimensions. To use this rule, multiply the number of bedrooms by the cost per bedroom. Pumps should never support the suction or discharge piping. Rule 2 Set the control pressure drop to 50 - 60% of the frictional pressure loss of the piping system. When using this calculator, first you should enter your building inputs. A clear cover of 15mm to 20mm should be provided in RCC slab. If risers are greater than 50 feet in height, add guides every 30 feet. Rule 4 Avoid using the lower 10% and upper 20% of the valve stroke. Bracing selection: Structural Engineer: Civil & Piping Engineer: 5. Jan 23, 2023 · Thumb Rules for Slab: The minimum thickness of slab should be 125mm. 0). 6 so that the costs reported here are more than double the value in 2003. 2 mm) of pipe thickness. Jan 28, 2021 · Most of the charts that manufacturers publish have multiple curves that represent the performance of different impeller sizes. Unlike wires and cables, where electrical engineers insist on stuffing their pipes full of copper and fiber-optic cables - which only serves to increase the resistance to the current they are trying to transmit! - piping engineers know they need to keep their new pipes hollow and empty. Intermediate ones should be checked monthly. Do yourself a favor, save time and buy the material, you will not regret it. It is directly related to project costs as well. Ensure the Piping Arrangement Does Not Cause Strain on the Pump Casing. Feb 2, 2021 · Piping Engineer: Structure & Civil Engineer: 3. Support all changes in directions such as elbows or bends within 3 pipe diameters of the end of a bend. The inside diameter of the couplings or the flanges must be equal to the inside diameter of the pipe. A piping or pipeline expansion loop is used in the systems to control the thermal expansion and contraction of pipes due to temperature variations. 0: How to use the HVAC Rule of Thumb Calculator. 6. 2 mm to 4. It discusses physical properties for proprietary materials, pharmaceutical and biopharmaceutical sector heuristics, and The most complex work in developing these man hours was the work on the man hours f or piping abov e ground. Now in its eighth edition, this handbook continues to set the standard by which all other piping books are judged. Expansion loops All Pipe Stress Engineers need to understand and be able to use simple rules, tools, and methods for checking expansion loops in rack piping. FLOW orifices (and their cousins, venturi nozzles) are a simple and reliable technology for measuring flow rates in pipelines. The thumb rules in civil engineering are as follows, 1. Example:- If Plan Area = 40 x 20 = 800 Sq. Most of the rules can be applied to vessels, piping, tanks and structural components. Presented in easy-to-use, step-by-step order, Pipeline Rules of Thumb Handbook is a quick reference for day-to-day pipeline operations. Locate the joints for easy access to allow dismantling of the pipeline when necessary. ft ( 10 x 10) and the needed. Along with over 30% new or updated material regarding codes 9-1 REFRIGERATION REFERENCE GPSA Engineering Data Book, Section 14 Bechtel Process Engineers rule of thumb and CE Process checks 9-2 10 A. Limit tip speed of fans: < 9 feet in diameter to 12,000 ft/min (FPM) >9 feet in diameter to 11,000 ft/min. Search box. An engineering Rule of Thumb is an outright statement regarding suitable sizes or performance of equipment that avoids all requirements for extended calculations. Updated with new data, graphs and chapters devoted to economics and the environment, this new edition One rule of thumb for setting the distance between piping levels is three times the largest pipe size. Electrode diameters for SMAW pipeline welding normally vary from 1/8 inch to 3. A basis I used was a system for estimating the value of erection works of a German Company LINDE, which I It is the objective of this article to provide a simple rule of thumb to plant engineers, vibration engineers, and managers that are facing a vibration issue at their power or process plant. Ideally, a space of 750mm should be provided around the sides of a nozzle. May 5, 2021 · The 5th edition of Rules of Thumb has been created by referencing various contemporary sources in the building services industry and can reasonably be held to reflect current design practices. About the Author Mark Kaiser is Marathon Professor and Director of the Research and Development Division at the Center for Energy Studies at Louisiana State University. Rules of thumb for plant layout and piping design. Pipeline Rules of Thumb Handbook: A Manual of Quick, Accurate Solutions to Everyday Pipeline Engineering Problems, Ninth Edition, the latest release in the series, serves as the "go-to" source for all pipeline engineering answers. Design Conditions and Energy Conservation 16. Electrical This engineering pro guide material combined with the fact I am in the field of HVAC design is the only way I was able to pass the exam with less than 100 hours of total prep. For Industrial Air-cooled 2-stage air compressors----3. Cost per Unit: For multi-unit residential or commercial projects, this thumb rule estimates the cost per unit (apartment, office, etc. Jun 3, 2016 · THUMB RULES FOR PIPING ENGINEERS / PROCESS. The usual thumb rule for pipeline welding by SMAW is to consider one pass for each 1/8 inch(3. Manufacturing Engineer. 4 = 254mm. The approach to plant layout and piping design can vary depending on the nature of the plant and the project. The solids must be accelerated rapidly to the conveying velocity, which causes a large pressure drop. 3" 200. Employ the rules of thumb for heat exchangers and command the TEMA standards and Dec 11, 2003 · The following velocities are recommended by the Heat Exchnage Institute for feed water passing through the tubes. And now the owner is saddled with an oddball gasket for which he has to keep spares in his storeroom. Both ends of the adjacent pipe segments must May 10, 2012 · A few other hints and thumb rules. As a thumb rule, high-pressure steam traps with a pressure rating greater than 250 psig should be tested daily. Rules of thumb are broad statements of principle. Mar 1, 2019 · There are basically four different items that can be shown on P&IDs: pipes and other flow conductors; equipment; instruments; and instrument and control signals. Rules of Thumb for Chemical Engineers, Sixth Edition, is the most complete guide for chemical and process engineers who need reliable and authoritative solutions to on-the-job problems. Made by faculty at the University of Color Nov 29, 2018 · You have to machine the flange blank, plus you are expending engineering $$ to design a flange. It includes rules for estimating piping pressure drop as a function of flow rate, density, pipe diameter and viscosity. One of the advantages of using thumb rules is that one can get on a spot solution for a particular activity or a problem. bard. 4m3. Alkane Wikipedia Rules of Thumb for Chemical Engineers 5 Stephen M Hall June 24th, 2018 Piping Inspection Basics. Combined changes of direction and elevation in pipeways ordinarily shall be made with 90° elbows. The parameters like safety of pipe, equipment, nozzle, piping fittings, and piping components are addressed in the pipe stress analysis. No rules are unbreakable, otherwise they’d be laws, so there’s Apr 28, 2022 · The engineer must determine the gas flow rate and pressure (positive or negative) required to convey the process stream. A: Yes, rules of thumb do apply and a valve that meets the rules of thumb below is usually the best choice: If a system has a lot of pipe (most common), use an equal percentage valve. If a set of loop tuning parameters only works at one end of the control range and not the other, the valve Mar 3, 2022 · Thumb Rule for estimating the Concrete Volume with respect to the area: The volume of concrete required = 0. Copper-nickel (70-30,80-20 and 90-10) - 2. A free landing space of 750mm is to be provided for access ladders. (2) Only 15 left in stock - order soon. The charts are specific to a pump size and speed. 50kg/-Sqft Or 80 to 150kg/m3. Use of easy-to-open pipeline couplings is common. May 30, 2014 · RE: Rule of Thumb for estimating number of engineering deliverables MJCronin (Mechanical) 5 Jun 14 14:50 It is my experience that the piping material and installation costs can very strongly affect the overall cost estimate. It gives some rules of thumb that give a range for sizing the operating buffers that the columns require. Lighting Rules of Thumb 12. Similarly, for a given piping installation, the pressure drop through the pipeline depends on the flow rate; a plot of pressure drop against flow is called the system curve. Written by Adarsh in Construction, Piping Design Basics. Example:-If Plan Area = 40 x 20 = 800 Sq. Specific Process Considerations The following process considerations are relevant to the platform layout: a. With these Main branches based on an average air consumption of 0. 04 = 4 m³ with M5 blend rate means. They use their knowledge to define the most suitable economic pipe routing, type of fittings, space requirement, and various parameters in the design. Like. This book fills a training void with complete and practical understanding of Sharing The Piping Design Engineering Knowledge and job post. Mechanical Engineer. So, for the plan area of 800 Sq. Admiralty and copper - 2. Solids are introduced into the gas stream by vacuum or through specially designed valves, pumps, or blow vessels. HVAC System Selection Criteria 17. the area the total volume of concrete required. Size and Type of Member (Column and beam) selection as per different loads (like pipe & equipment load, cable tray load, wind load, seismic load, etc. Plant layout design means efficiently placing equipment, piping, instrumentation, and other manufacturing supports and facilities with proper planning during the design stage to create the most effective plant layout. The value of CEPCI Index for the year 2003 was 395. Design Engineer. Equipment. MISCELLANEOUS Large Production & Processing Platforms 1. If you follow them, things turn out better. 1 meters from one end to the other. For residential buildings – 4. longitudinal weld gap, weld gap thumb rule. Keep all pipe and fitting connections tight in suction vacuum conditions to prevent air from getting into the pump. $133. In some sort of inundated with displays and the cacophony of fast connection, the profound power and mental resonance of verbal art usually fade in to obscurity, eclipsed by the constant onslaught of sound and distractions. For preliminary estimates assume 4 rows of tubes. 5, that the spacing between pipe supports is roughly “size + 10”, in other words, the spacing between supports on an 1 inch instrument tubing would be “1 + 10” = 11 ft, while the spacing on a 6 inch line for example Dec 10, 2020 · This article provides information that will help engineers understand how the chromatography columns are sized. 7 m/s. + For a conventional fixed steel leg offshore platform, 1 kg of equipment list weight required 6 kg of structural steel to hold it up out of the water. If the system has very little pipe, use a liner valve. The load-bearing capacity of trunnion supports is usually less and The drag is normally prepared by of pipe stress or pipe support engineer and checked by a civil engineer to ascertain the structural member load-carrying aptitude. Thumb Rule In Civil Engineering In Online thumb-rule-in-civil-engineering-in-online 3 Downloaded from nagios. Piping Stress analysis involves examining the flexibility and stiffness of a stress Mar 11, 2021 · Piping Installation and Erection Procedure. The interstage and discharge piping thumb rule for sizing is a pressure drop not to exceed 2 percent of operating pressure or 34 kPa (whichever is higher) and a maximum actual velocity (adjusted for temperature and compressibility) of 15. For example, Shoe support, Clamp Support, Guide Support, Line Stop Support, Trunnion Support, etc. Thumb Rule for Concrete Volume. edu on 2023-01-23 by guest chapters focus on pneumatic conveying, blending and agitation, energy conservation, and process modeling. Site for Mechanical PE Sample Exams, Mechanical PE Exam Technical study guides, Morning Session Sample Mechanical PE Exam, Afternoon Session HVAC and Refrigeration Sample Exam, HVAC design tools, Plumbing design tools and Quality control checklists. Unveiling the Power of Verbal Artistry: An Psychological Sojourn through Civil Engineering Structural Design Thumb Rules. What does a Piping Engineer do? Read the Piping Engineer job description to discover the typical qualifications and responsibilities for this role. ;Generously illustrated with over Description. 6 Rules of Thumb for Chemical Engineers<br /> Suggested Fluid Velocities in Pipe and Tubing<br /> (Liquids, Gases, and Vapors at Low Pressures to 5Opsig and 50°F-100°F)<br /> The velocities are suggestive only and are to be used to approxi-<br /> mate line size as a starting point for pressure drop calculations. Wednesday, May 25, 2011. Air Distribution Feb 1, 2023 · If the Plinth area is 100Sq. Download spreadsheet templates from Rules of Thumb for. The Engineer’s Guide to Plant Layout and Piping Design for the Oil and Gas Industries gives pipeline engineers and plant managers a critical real-world reference to design, manage, and implement safe and effective plants and piping systems for today’s operations. The platform should extend beyond the centerline of the manhole by a minimum of 1 manhole diameter. In an age of pre-computing, their tools consisted of pencil and paper, theory, practical experience, and rules of thumb. The volume of concrete required = 0. 4 m/s. Section 3. For commercial buildings – 5 to 5. For large Piston, Screw & Centrifugal air compressors--4. May 27, 2021 · Stephen Hall discusses the golden rules for design. Heating Load Factors 15. Dec 22, 2015 · HVAC Equations, Data, and Rules of Thumb, 3e offers all of the information an HVAC student or professional needs in one resource. Now in its sixth edition, Pipeline Rules of Thumb Handbook has been and continues to be the standard resource for any professional in the pipeline industry. Rules of Thumb for Mechanical Engineers assembles hundreds of shortcuts, calculations, practical "how-to" methods, and concise background reviews into one convenient volume. Method of application is conventional Spray Painting. As structural engineering fully developed into an established profession, structural engineers created standards, codes, and textbooks to guide and train the members of their profession. Such rules should be of value for approximate design and cost estimation, and should not provide the inexperienced engineer with perspective and a foundation where detailed Top 10 Compressed Air "rules Of Thumb". Carbon steel - 2. Rule 3 Limit the maximum flow rate through the valve: Minimum flow rate turndown should be 5:1 for linear trim valves. Although many engineers routinely specify flex connections, such as hoses or bellows, for this purpose, adequate flexibility is usually obtainable with careful routing and support of the piping. Piping Installation or Erection refers to the laying of the piping system and its related accessories to make it ready for fluid transfer. As far as practical, piping shall run at different elevations in north-south and east-west banks, and shall change elevation when changing direction. m. For learn more about piping support design and engineering you can choose used the following view course. MM. 8 Nm3/hr) per user. The guide is useful for approximately calculating values, setting outline targets and rapidly comparing different options to inform the early stages of Aug 13, 2021 · Avoid high pockets in suction piping, which can trap air. It gives some really quick answers Primary Piping Support. 16 inches (3. For more than 35 years, the Pipeline Rules of Written by Anup Kumar Dey in Instrumentation, Mechanical, Piping Interface, Process. 5 CFM per HP. This article will describe the Control Valve Sizing Procedure with some details of related Sep 24, 2013 · For more than 35 years, the Pipeline Rules of Thumb Handbook has served as the "go-to" reference for solving even the most day-to-day vexing pipeline workflow problems. A pipe trunnion is defined as an additional pipe of similar or lower size welded to an active piping system to provide physical support. ;Written by 82 world experts in the field, the Piping Design Handbook: details the basic principles of piping design; explores pipeline shortcut methods in an in-depth manner; and presents expanded rules of thumb for the piping design engineer. Piping Inspection is a comprehensive task that is performed following client/company-specific inspection documents. CFM delivery per Horse Power at 100 PSIG: For "home owner" type of air compressors---2 to 2. 038 m3/square feet area. The first thing that a reader of a P&ID expects is legibility. The design and selection of primary pipe support (Fig. However, trunnion supports with the same size pipe are usually avoided due to profile cutting and welding difficulties during construction. Foundation Calculations: Civil Engineer: NA: 6. Thumb Rules for Civil Engineering In Construction. bgc. concrete volume is 100 x0. Because the orifice has fixed dimensions and the pressure-measuring taps Centrifugal Compressor Discharge Piping Design Process Considerations for Discharge Piping Design. 5. And Now you have to design and make special gaskets. Rules of thumb are the quickest way to avoid technical dead-ends. Jul 18, 2016 · Higher velocities can lead to increased pumping costs and potential damage to the piping due to erosion or water hammer. And it gives a typical chromatography piping and instrumentation diagram. Love. Apr 14, 2022 · Pipeline Rules of Thumb Handbook, Ninth Edition continues to be the high-quality classic reference to help pipeline engineers solve their day to day problems. Nov 30, 2015 · Infiltration Rules of Thumb 8. Pipe Dia in mm (D) = 10″ X 25. This may, however, be lowered to 600mm at the discretion of the piping lead. 2 m/sec. 0) and understanding and interpreting the outputs (Section 5. Thumb rule is a method on which one cannot rely in every situation due to its lesser accuracy relatively, but still, it is used widely on construction sites as it seems easier to engineers. Sep 26, 2007 · HVAC Equations, Data, and Rules of Thumb presents a wealth of state-of-the-art HVAC design information and guidance, ranging from air distribution to piping systems to plant equipment. For example, if a pipe has a length of 10 meters, then a 1% piping slope means that the pipe will rise or fall by 0. Rules of thumb? They’re everywhere. Aug 16, 2023 · Rule of Thumb for Steel Quantities in Structural Framing; Rule of Thumb: Estimate that 1 ton (2,000 pounds) of steel is required for every 1,000 to 1,500 square feet of floor area in a structural frame. Oct 8, 2013 · Pipeline Rules of Thumb Handbook: A Manual of Quick, Accurate Solutions to Everyday Pipeline Engineering Problems. They are usually located between two pipe Upon the successful completion of this course, participants will be able to: Apply the rules of thumb for chemical and process engineering including fluid flow, gas flow, and velocity head, piping pressure, compressible flow, sonic velocity, metering and valves. xb qi at ry pv sj zv bw qx ly